Rob: Coming up next on Rob at Home: She filled the air with hope and took our breath away with a message of unity.

Inaugural poet, Amanda Gorman.

Amanda: "“We the successors of a country and a time where a skinny Black girl descended from slaves and raised by a single mother can dream of becoming president only to find herself reciting for one.

"” Rob: Bertha Gaffney Gorman, the grandmother of the first national youth poet laureate, on her family's journey from slavery to celebration at the United States Capitol.

Bertha: It really is true.

I mean, I don't know when I've done this kind of an interview where you just talk about, um, the... impact on people's lives and where these things come from.

Rob: My conversation with Bertha Gaffney Gorman starts now.

Annc: And now, Rob on the Road exploring Northern California.

Rob: I am so pleased that Bertha Gaffney Gorman is joining us right here on Rob at Home.

It is so good to see you, Mrs. Gorman.

Thank you.

Bertha: Thank you, Rob.

It's really a pleasure to be here and to meet you.

Thank you.

Rob: It's a pleasure to have you here and to meet you as well.

Wow!

Bertha: Wow!

Rob: Wow - wow - wow!

Bertha: Yes, absolutely.

Absolutely.

Rob: How are you feeling?

Bertha: Well, you know, it's actually still very hard to put it into words, you know, of course I'm immensely proud, love her to the moon and back.

My family were overjoyed, our friends, people who have met her, um, and who know her, they are just so excited for her.

And for the fact that, uh, the opportunity of having met her.

You know, and she's becoming, um, a household name and that's pretty amazing.

So, um, we're- I'm still processing it.

Rob: You know, I can only describe it as this: when your granddaughter, Amanda Gorman, came out on to the Capitol platform.

Amanda: "“...Merge mercy with might, and might with right, then love becomes our legacy..."” Rob: I feel that your granddaughter took this to a hug of hope... Bertha: Mhm, I love that.

Yes.

Rob: For the world.

Bertha: Yes.

Rob: And I say that because really studying what she wrote, she wrote it for everyone.

Bertha: Yes, she did.

I love that, Rob.

I love that, "“a hug of hope,"” because I think that's what so many people felt.

It was amazing, the number of people I spoke with and the tears.

I mean, it was just amazing.

I received a call from this woman, I don't know how she found me, I've never met her, probably never will.

But she- and she was elegant in her explanation of what she felt when she heard, um, Amanda speak.

And she was just boo-hooing.

And so many people did, they'd start trying to explain what it meant to them and, you know, the tears would just flow.

So, I think- and I'm still at that point of, um, you know, understanding.

I do understand what she was saying because she is very aware and very sensitive to what is going on in the world and around her.

So yes, it's, um, I...

I love that description that you have, that a hug- which we so desperately needed and hope which we desperately needed.

Rob: Absolutely.

Bertha: Thank you for that.

Rob: And thank you.

And, and I...

I can see in you already, in this short time, I can see in you that deep wisdom that she has at only 22 years old.

Bertha: It's really special.

And I would say, I've said this to her, you know, she, th- th- this is what she was born to do.

I mean, she is- she, you know, she is just one of those very special persons who has an insight, and she's had it for as long as I can remember, as long as, um, you know, she was able to converse and to ask questions and to talk about things.

So, yes, she's... she's a very special person of special- very special being.

Rob: When I began asking people, once you and I had spoken and confirmed that we were going to be doing this, uh, I started asking people- and I had already asked them anyway, in conversation, what did you think about the inauguration?

And everybody, everybody said, "“Can you believe the poet, Amanda Gorman.

"” Bertha: The fact that she pays such close attention, that she is a historian also because she reads everything.

The reas- she'’s a wonderful researcher and that she absolutely understood what is going on in the country and what she wanted to say about that.

So, I think the impact that it has on the overall feeling of the country, of so many people, so very many people, um, that it was... that it was very, very important.

It'’s what people needed to hear.

And... and the president actually said, um, those things in his way of... of... of presenting them.

But as a poet, and that's what poets do.

I mean, they... they don't just say words.

They... they either touch you or they don't.

And she touched, I think, this nation in a very, very deep way.

You know, I know that she was working on the... on the poem for, you know, weeks before.

And, but she really put a cap on what the president had to say, and that I think is much more important.

And, you know, I...

I know that the Super Bowl is important, but what she had to say at this time in our history, I believe is much more important.

Rob: Absolutely.

Um, I also found out that she just, like you said, she only had a few weeks to write this.

Bertha: That's right.

Rob: Now she did graduate from Harvard.

Bertha: Yes, she did last...

Yes, she did last year.

Rob: So, she'’s very smart.

Bertha: And you know, she's very bright, but I think that what made it so special also is, um, for... for many people, writers, poets, having been a writer myself, if you, uh, you just don't do that in, uh, a few weeks with the kind of depth that she brought to it.

So, um, I- you know, I've said to people who were asking me, and I said, you know- and actually for many poets and writers, it would have taken them months and sometimes years to do that.

And yeah, it was pretty amazing that she was able to do it so quickly, but she... she's done this before.

Rob: And I think that the reason she was able also to do it is that you just referenced it, she had done this before.

But it was also a point in which her preparation... Bertha: Mhm.

Rob: And her destiny connect.

Bertha: Yes, aligned.

Yes, came together.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Rob: I saw her speak in, um, Los Angeles in 2014, I had the pleasure of introducing her when she spoke... Bertha: Oh, did you!

Rob: I did, seven years ago for the Performing Animal Welfare Society.

Bertha: Oh, how wonderful!

I didn't know that.

Rob: And she was remarkable.

Bertha: Yes.

Rob: And I know that Dr. Jill Biden saw Amanda make a speech.

Bertha: Yes.

Rob: I believe it was at the Congressional Library.

Bertha: At the- yes, the, uh, absolutely.

I was actually there...

I was there with her.

Rob: And she said, "“She has as to be a part..."” Bertha: Yes.

Yes, it was a wonderful- it was an amazing, uh, presentation.

Rob: And your story really is very powerful to me.

Bertha: Thank you.

Rob: And I'm talking specifically about the story of Bertha Gaffney Gorman.

Bertha: Mhm.

Rob: You are the through-line, Mrs. Gorman to this entire story.

You knew your father's grandparents.

Bertha: Yes.

Rob: Which is phenomenal.

You were very young.

Bertha: Mhm.

Rob: But those grandparents were one generation away from slavery.

Bertha: Absolutely.

They absolutely were.

My mother talked to me a lot about the experience of her grandfather especially, who was a slave because he- she... she lived with my grandfather, her grandfather rather.

And so, she knew his story and, uh, what slavery had done to him and what it meant to them.

Um, and I think that was one of the values that we had because we knew these stores.

Some... And... and I think we were very fortunate in that way that we actually knew the stories behind our parents and our grandparents and behind their struggles.

So it wasn't that we thought we grew up in and everything was, you know, great, if we knew where our parents came from.

Rob: You know, you've had a brilliant career.

You worked at the Sacramento Bee in the 70'’s, uh, as well as consulting in the State House in California.

A huge career, which put you in the national spotlight at Lockheed Martin.

Bertha: Yes.

Rob: Um, I saw you on CSPAN talking about that... Bertha: Oh, did you?

Rob: In the 90'’s... Yep.

Bertha: Yes.

Rob: And all of your journeys with... with some of your career and some of your family'’s story is captured so beautifully by your son.

And his name is G Glen Gorman... Bertha: Yes.

Rob: And he produced "“Coffee with Mom"” which I think is phenomenal.

I'm on this huge kick for people to interview their parents and grandparents.

Bertha: Yes.

Rob: He did a great job, and so did you, discussing some really heavy stuff.

Bertha: Thank you.

I really appreciate that.

And of course, uh, Glen is going to be thrilled to know that we talked about it because it was important.

Um, he had done quite a lot of, uh, genealogical research on our family and it was amazing the- how, you know, how important that was to him and to our family, but also just the things that we learned.

You know, we knew the names of people and to actually see them, you know, written in the census, to see the names written in the census, to see my grandmother for whom I named.

Rob: Mhm.

Bertha: And, uh, so... Yeah, he was... he was pretty overwhelmed as he went through and found, uh, information of cousins and... and relations that we knew existed because I had heard my parents talk about them.

And he- and... and... and so I was able to say to him, that is my uncle and my auntie on this- in this way or that way it was... it was fantastic.

So, he would be very proud that you mentioned that.

Rob: That's why I say that you are the through-line.

Bertha: Yes.

Rob: Because when Amanda, your granddaughter, recited her poem... Bertha: Mhm.

Rob: And said, "“...the descendant of slaves..."” Bertha: Yes.

Rob: It all comes back to the story that you are able to tell.

Bertha: Yes.

Thank you.

Rob: You.

Bertha: That is so true.

Yes.

I'll tell you another story that was also very moving for me.

Um, several years ago, um, my sisters and I, we were in Texas where my family lived and we actually found the last house that my family lived in, in Texas.

And it's- it was really not- it was more of a... a shotgun house as they used to call them.

You open the door and this, you know, it's just straight through like three rooms or something like that.

But anyhow, I took pictures, had it on my mantle here in my... in my family room.

And I remember this clearly, Amanda came in and she was looking at the picture, so she says, "“Grandmother, what is that?

"” And I said, "“That is the last house that my family, you know, my mother and dad and my sisters and brothers that we lived in, um, in Texas, before we moved out of that particular area.

"” And so, she... she thought about it and thought about it.

She says, "“So grandmother, tell me how you got from that to here.

"” And so that was a story that, you know, that was a wonderful opportunity to tell the story about how we got from there.

Because Texas was horrible in its treatment of, uh, Black people.

And it's really, really horrible in the way it treated, its, you know, the slaves.

I mean, it really did not accept the... the, you know, the proclamation as you know, because it didn't see it- it freed the people, like three years or two years, I believe, after slavery had been declared illegal.

And so, the- we, you know, we heard the horrible stories of, you know, of- and literally my father and I remember it, and my mom, where they... where they would have to hide the males in the cellar.

So, they called it the storm sellers, which were some- some were not always in a part of the house, but sometime away from the home- because the clan was riding- the clan is rioting.

And they would be coming through... And just cruelly, people went out and celebrated and hang- took their children to hangings.

So, this was a very...

Rob: This is why the story must be told.

Bertha: Yes.

Rob: This is why the story must be shared.

As painful as it is, we have to tell the story.

Bertha: We have to tell the story.

And it doesn't mean that you have to, uh, strike out or to be angry, but it's important to know it because when you see it coming at you again... You know, there always has been this undercurrent, it's not new.

Because sometimes we think, well, you know, we... we've reached this level and, and we, uh, sort of lulled into a feeling of complacency because we believe it when a lot of people know that it just isn't true because of the experiences they're having.

Rob: Yeah.

You know what it is?

It's this.

Bertha: Yes, absolutely.

Absolutely.

Rob: The racial justice... Bertha: Yes.

Rob: Is not new.

Bertha: It is not new.

Rob: Catching everything on camera... Bertha: Mhm.

Rob: Is so powerful.

Bertha: Yes.

Rob: And it's heartbreaking... Bertha: It is.

Rob: That that's what it takes, a recording.

When people see it happening in front of their own eyes.

Bertha: Absolutely.

So that's a really interesting discussion for me because, um... uh, the... the way all of these things came together, the COVID, uh, and we were all locked down, we couldn't go anywhere.

We were really having to, uh, just be home and watch.

And so, this horrific thing occurs that truly, truly brought an awareness to people in this country who simply had not bel-— I don't know if they had not believed what was going on or was it just really easy for them to ignore it.

Rob: And are you referring to the murder of George Floyd?

Bertha: Yes, I am.

That occurred during COVID-19.

Now what it... what- and, you know, these things have been going on for years.

Black people, with men and women had been brutalized and killed, but it was interesting to me the way it came, um, together.

So, my father used to say, um, about getting your attention, and I think it's an old saying among, uh, Black people, period.

You know, first, um, you know, you... you whisper, they don't hear.

And then you shout, nobody hears you.

I think in this situation, America was sort of hit upside the head to get their attention to say, "“This is wrong.

"” Because so many people did it.

And so many people who really didn't b- believe, you know, every kid who was killed must've been doing something wrong.

And, um, I think this proved that no...

So many people, or, you know, just because people thought they had a right to kill or to abuse them.

So, interesting anyways...

Rob: So, your father told you a story... Bertha: Yes.

Rob: About a young man, um, who was literally run down.

Bertha: Yes.

Yes.

And it was a well-known story in... in our area.

This... this young Black man- because there were dirt roads and so forth.

So, this white man was in his car.

He came, and he literally ran this young Black man over and of course killed him.

And then, um, he was arrested, went to court and told the court that the reason... he thought he was a dog.

He thought that the man was a dog and that was the re- that was the reason he ran over him and they let him go.

Now, the other side of the story is that, um, he lost his mind.

He continued to come into the Black community and his thing was "“Well, he should have run... he should have run.

"” That the Black man should have- this young man should have gotten out of his way in the car.

But the, uh, you know... you know, I think he must've had some feelings about it.

He must've had some conscious because it bothered him to the point of, he would come into the Black community, uh, and... and... and... and this is what he- w- he... he used the N word.

"“He should have run.

He should have ran, he should'’ve run.

"” But yeah.

But that was Texas.

And that was not an unusual story.

Rob: You mentioned Texas and you also mentioned the young men having... the young men having to hide... Bertha: Yes.

Rob: In the sellers from the Ku Klux Klan.

Bertha: Yes.

Yes.

Rob: And then I go to your career at the Sacramento Bee where you went and interviewed David Duke.

Bertha: Yes.

Rob: Who was the head of the Klan.

Bertha: That'’s right.

And... and, you know, this is, I think, some of the so unfortunate things that have happened in our society and continues.

Um, David Duke was, at that time, he was, you know, he was just becoming known nationally.

But he was just, how do you say, well, the truth is he was just a poor white person in Louisiana.

And so, part of the story is I went to Louisiana, I went to a number of areas in the South, um, as a reporter to report on whether- this was 10 years after Martin Luther King- and whether it had made a difference.

I don't remember having fear.

Well, I knew I needed to be safe.

Um, and the newspaper actually had let the police and security know that I was going to be there, that I was going to be, um, interviewing him.

And then they spoke with him, I guess.

And the decision was made that I wouldn't go to him.

I wouldn't go outside the hotel, but that I would interview him in my room and I- and that's where I interviewed him.

And, uh, yeah, he was just this poor white person who felt privileged, but at the same time was very fearful and he, and he actually said it out loud, I made the quote, I quoted him in the news in the story that I wrote, that his greatest fear was this rising tide of melanin.

this rising tide of color.

Rob: Of color Bertha: Yes Yes, this rising tide of color.

Rob: And he said that to you?

Bertha: He said it and I quoted him, I...

I...

I quoted it in my, in the story that I wrote.

Uh, that because, and he felt that it was his duty as a white person to prevent it.

And I think that's what we see now even without realizing, that among some people, that's exactly what they are fearing, is the growing, uh, number of people of color, not just Black people, but Brown people and Asian people and you name it, of people from other- but... but this- that America is becoming color... colorized.

Rob: You talk about the importance, with me, of... of history.

Bertha: Mhm.

Exactly.

Rob: And you know, Amanda's 22.

Bertha: Yes.

Almost 22.

Rob: She wasn'’t, uh, she was not alive when-— Bertha: No.

Rob: In the 70'’s was- when this was going on.

Bertha: No.

Rob: And that'’s why I go back to you, the through-line.

You are that through -line... I- we talk about these incredibly painful topics.

And then I close my eyes and I see Amanda's smile.

Bertha: Mhm.

Rob: I close my eyes and I see that smile.

And I see her with her hands and her heart weaving, um, a message that just rippled throughout this land.

Bertha: Yes.

Rob: And she knew that she had to write something that was, um, non, uh, bias.

It couldn't be one side or another and she found the tie that binds, and that's hope.

I do want to ask you... What would you say to your great grandmother that was with you when you were a little girl... if she were on the other side of this screen right now, instead of me?

Bertha: Well, I would say, I think... You know, the first thing is that I would have to thank her.

I would have to thank her for loving me and for letting me know that I was special.

I remember my... my mamma Laura.

I remember my... my other grandmother as well.

Rob: Your mamma Laura, her parents were slaves.

Bertha: Yes.

Rob: And she held you in her arms... Bertha: She did.

Rob: And then you... Just think about this, the hand of love.

Love'’s a powerful thing.

Bertha: It is- Rob: So, what love can do... Bertha: A very, very powerful thing.

Rob: And she held you in her arms.

You've held Amanda in your arms as an infant.

And she gave the speech of a lifetime that will last and could change the time of lives, many lives if we focus on love.

Bertha: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And-— Rob: And the lessons that happened before us.

Bertha: Yes.

So, when you say, what is hope?

Hope has, uh, you know, we... we... we can hope, but we also have a responsibility to make those hopes come true.

Um, but the hope is if we want peace, then we have to practice peace.

If we want love, we have to practice it.

If we want a country to be unified, then we have to practice that.

And I... and I have the hope and I think that's what she said.

We can do it if we dare to be it.

Yes, I'm hopeful.

And that's what gives me hope, the young people.

Rob: You have a beautiful saying.

You said something to your son about the sun, when it comes up and goes down and your hope in between, in the in between.

Bertha: That's right.

The sun comes up, and the sun goes down, and the hope is that in between it would be treated the same on you and on me.

And that's what democracy is to be.

That it would be the same for you and for me.

And if that's the case, then it would be all right.

Rob: Thank you so much.

And I just have to say, I'm so honored to meet you this way and I can't wait till I can meet you in person.

Bertha: Thank you.

Well, I appreciate the opportunity and, um, I loved the conversation.

I really appreciate you hearing me, because that's also, uh, something that is so missing, is that people don't really hear our stories.

Rob: I hear you and I see you.

Bertha: Thank you.

I appreciate that.

Rob: My best to you.

Bertha: And the same to you.

Rob: Bertha Gaffney Gorman, what a pleasure to have you here on Rob at Home.

Bertha: Thank you, it has been my pleasure.

Yes.

Rob: Bye-bye.

♪♪ ♪♪